Mellel

[Þorvarður]

Thank you for the detailed exploration of Mellel. For my use, the advantages it offers are better typography and better management of titles/variables/internal references.

As far as I can see, a better management of variables is not true. And what ‘variables’ are you talking about? Page Variables? Or Document Variables?

In Nisus, you easily insert ‘variables’ from the Insert menu > Document Property, and you can insert as many as you like, whereas Mellel allows you to insert only 20. So I don’t understand your statement.

[tedg]

I don't care much what the vendors define as variables. There are three kinds in my world:

what the program manages with built-in code. Mellel's auto titles do a good job here. I believe they are inspired by FrameMaker. No one does the one I have need for constantly: let me refer to a footnote number. as in "while footnote 47 notes Peirce's ..." But in the good old days I could wrote a book that referred to itself and its structure better than we can now.

what the user can define. Neither does a good job here. The number you can define is irrelevant. I'd like to specify an executive summary through my document as ledes in certain paragraphs and/or invisibly highlighted text and have them serialised where each has a value of the text of the next.

what we can insert and be calculated or evaluated by the code supplemented by macros. This is where tinderbox has a massive advantage as any variable (they call them attributes) has presence in a robust macro language, and separately in a similarly robust export/publication language. The user can define any number across all the common types. Unless I am missing something, Nisus has only one part of this in a relatively more limited macro language that can access real programs, but no way for the document to 'call' a macro.

It only takes a few minutes for you to start thinking about how this can be used. The chapter I am writing now makes passing reference to a discussion group where a very advanced topic is being discussed and has been for years. It would be great for me to define an area that says "nLab has discussed (blah) for 6 years now with (blah) different perspectives characterised by (blah), and most recently the concept of (blah) was introduced by (blah)(reference)"

Or if you want to stick with plain old valuables: Figure 3 shows a bar chart of known and presumed paid Russian operatives in the Trump campaign as of (November 2016, November 2020, and <<today>>) (notes on source and methodology, also computed).

So, I think auto title management by itself is enough to attract some folks to Mellel from Nisus. I also might use the OT extensions. But it is not compelling enough to toss the other advantages of Nisus.

[tedg]

Just want to say that I continue to find this review helpful. Thank you.

[xiamenese]

With the recent update to Mellel 6.3, and the lack of movement on these Nisus forums, I have been trying to get myself more up to speed with Mellel as a back-up. Apart from the general, in my view, idiosyncratic UI which requires a lot of back-and-forth in setting anything up, what I have found is:

• Tab setting I find very difficult; adding a new tab is OK, but removing one I find next to impossible, and moving one is challenging… it's all so much easier in NWP.
• Unlike in NWP, if you have a hanging indent, you cannot have a tab character to the left of the margin marker; case in point, ingredients list in my recipe collection… in NWP I have a 2-inch hanging indent, with a right tab at 1.75 inches, so an ingredients line has a TAB followed by the quantity, a TAB, then the ingredient name, which wraps to the 2" margin, which cannot be done in Mellel.
• I find setting up footnotes in NWP is far more transparent than in Mellel, where you have at least two different dialogs to negotiate and the "preview area" in "Configure Notes" doesn't reflect the "Note Text" Paragraph Style setting.
• For my workflow it has a major deal-breaker… while it can import RTF documents compiled from Scrivener and displays them as is, unlike NWP it doesn't pick up on the styles, so I would have to go through the whole document paragraph by paragraph, heading by heading, applying the styles in Mellel which are already there in the RTF. Compiling to DOCX and opening that in Mellel does retain the styles as created by Scrivener, but doesn't apply the equivalent styles from the Mellel default template; in comparison, compiling to RTF, opening in NWP and using a macro to update the styles with a given style collection is as simple as falling off a log!

So, while I like Mellel and will keep it updated, it seems to me that it is best suited if the whole writing process is done with it rather than using it as part of a workflow with other writing tools; presumably this is an outcome of its using its own file format. Visually, Mellel is more attractive and slightly more approachable than LibreOffice, which I find bloated and overly complex, but which I know to have better RTF handling. Pages is like Mellel in its handling of RTF and DOCX.

All-in-all, there's nothing like NWP!

[Þorvarður]

Hello Mark,

Tab setting I find very difficult […] removing one I find next to impossible

To remove a tab, hover over the tab you want to delete until you see two little left and right black arrows appear. Drag the arrows down until the tap disappears.

To delete all tabs, right-click on the ruler. You should then see this:

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By the way, right-clicking on the ruler is also possible in Nisus, and it gives you much more options than you have in Mellel. :–)

while it [Mellel] can import RTF documents compiled from Scrivener and displays them as is, unlike NWP it doesn't pick up on the styles, so I would have to go through the whole document paragraph by paragraph, heading by heading, applying the styles in Mellel which are already there in the RTF.

Therefore RTF should not be used as an import format. Use DOCX instead.

Compiling to DOCX and opening that in Mellel does retain the styles as created by Scrivener, but doesn't apply the equivalent styles from the Mellel default template

You may already be familiar with the following, but I thought I should describe how I see this problematic area, in case it may prove helpful for other forum members.

When you import a document in DOCX format, the styles will usually show up in the Paragraph palette with correct names, preceded by a black diamond. For example, if you have a style named "xyz", it will show up after the import as "◆xyx". The diamond indicates that the style is being used in the document but is not part of the current style set. In Mellel lingo, such styles are referred to as Detached Styles.
Detached Styles are similar to styles you may have created ad hoc in a Nisus document; such styles are in the document, but not in the Nisus New File, which means: next time you create a new empty Nisus document, these styles won't show up.

So, after you have imported a document into Mellel in DOCX format, you have two choices:
(1) You can just use the detached styles in the document or
(2) you can permanently add them to a style set. Then you create an empty template that contains these styles and use that template as an import template.
Note the difference between "Default template" (= Mellel New File) and "Default Template for import" which is used when documents are imported into Mellel. Make sure your "Default Template for import" contains your Scrivener styles.

2.png (78.45 KiB) Viewed 9883 times

Perhaps you could upload a short compressed Lorem ipsum sample file in DOCX format where each paragraph represents one of your styles from Scrivener (or Nisus). If you have 20 styles, for example, then the document should have only 20 short paragraphs. I'll see if I can create for you a new style set and an import template in Mellel.

[Þorvarður]

it seems to me that it [= Mellel] is best suited if the whole writing process is done with it rather than using it as part of a workflow with other writing tools

This is exactly what Avner Matan said. He was the one "responsible for creating learning resources to assist users in learning how to use Mellel, and to provide support for those who are running into various issues with the software […] and monitor the forum." (Eyal Redler in the Mellel forum on Fri Sep 01, 2017).

I had complained about having imported a document with hundreds of headings written in bold (which distinguished them from the rest of the text) and not being able to transform those headings into Auto-titles all in one go. At that time, this had to be done manually, one heading at a time. Now, in version 6, such a feature has finally be implemented. —Avner Matan stayed a few months and then silently crept away and has never be seen again!

All-in-all, there's nothing like NWP!

Amen to that!

[xiamenese]

Hi Þorvarður,

I'm sorry, I had read your second post from 21/02, but have only just seen your long reply to my post below it. So here's my feedback to that.

On removing tab stops: my real problem here is the fact that I have an essential tremor, which makes trackpads extremely difficult to use, so even with my MacBook Air, if I am at a table or a desk, I use a mouse with it. But even that can be problematic, as with modern Macs like my M2Pro Mini, it is so sensitive that the cursor moves just as I am about to press the button (and yes, I must try with my mouse slowed down!). But with Mellel, hovering to bring up the black arrows is not easy for me and I tend to lose them as I press. I know about right clicking to remove all, but then I have to place some where I want them and that is no easier.

That said: (a) I have managed to remove some, but was not sure how I had succeeded… you have explained how to do it when/if I need, so thank you for that; (b) the problem is not confined to Mellel… I have great trouble trying to select cells in Numbers, for instance, as the whole table slides around and I end up clicking the adjacent cell rather than the one I want.

But to come back to Nisus: yes, Right clicking the ruler brings up many more options, and you can select a tab and right click to change its type, which I couldn't get to happen in Mellel; Nisus seems less sensitive to my tremor than Mellel; but most importantly of course, I have had Nisus set up the way I want for years, and rarely have to do anything of this kind.

As for the importing, if I have to use Mellel, I will use DOCX as an intermediary, but it involves two translation processes, Scrivener's internal RTF --> DOCX, DOCX --> .mellel, whereas both Scrivener and Nisus use RTF so no translation necessary.

I spent time creating my own default template for Mellel, with all the Scrivener styles in a compiled DOCX reproduced with the exact same fonts, sizes, etc. The only differences, I guess were any Tab stops. I set that up as my Default Template for Import:. I then imported a DOCX, and yes, all the styles came across as detached styles!

Thank you for the offer of trying to set up a template for me; it's very kind of you. But I'll continue to work on this myself, as I feel I need, as I said in my earlier post, to get up to speed with Mellel and that is a part of it.

I think of it this way: with Mellel, I have to take my document to Mellel; with Nisus I bring Nisus to my document, and that is so much easier with its macros!

[Þorvarður]

[…] and yes, all the styles came across as detached styles!

These detached styles in Mellel are a nuisance.

I'll continue to work on this myself

I wish you good luck. I'll will stick to Nisus as long as possible. :–)

[xiamenese]

I'll will stick to Nisus as long as possible. :–)

Absolutely! But I don't want to be in a position where I can't use Nisus and have to quickly start learning Mellel or LibreOffice or whatever.