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different first page header height

Posted: 2008-04-06 12:00:29
by samuelas
Hi,

I was wondering how to go about changing the top margin of the first page only in order to accommodate letterhead.

many thanks
s

Posted: 2008-04-06 14:57:44
by greenmorpher
When it says "Different First Page" it is talking about the contents of the header, samuelas. As you can see, that margins are set in relation to the size of the general text part of the page, not the size of the header.

You can achieve what you want by setting up your first page with margins to accommodate your letterhead, then inserting a section break when you move from the first page to the second, so that you start a new section on the second page, for which you can specify different margins.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- Revealed! The secrets of how you can use type and layout to turbocharge your messages in print. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com

Re: different first page header height

Posted: 2019-08-07 19:16:20
by Vanceone
I'm resurrecting this thread because I just ran into this issue myself. I have to file a document with the Court with a 2 inch top margin on the 1st page, but a regular margin on the rest of the document.

So naturally I clicked the "Different first page header" option and enlarged the header to 2 inches. Low and behold header sizes are the same across the document.

I of course can use a different section here, but it seems a bit illogical to have "different first page header" not work--i.e. if I have a different first page header, by golly it should be different than the rest in more than just different text.

Re: different first page header height

Posted: 2019-08-07 23:13:25
by adryan
G’day, Vanceone et al

My investigation into this reveals a bug!

First, just to clarify a few things….

In the Margins Palette, the Header Height is the vertical height of the rectangle allocated to the Header. The Top Margin is the vertical distance from the top of the page (sheet of paper) to the bottom of the Header rectangle (ie, to the top of the “normal” page content).

It is important to appreciate that the “Top Margin” is not the top margin of the document, as one might think, but rather something set somewhat lower (when there is a Header). Also, I say “normal” page content because it is possible to have content that is positioned partially or wholly outside the large rectangle that includes Header, “normal” content and Footer. For example, a Text Box or some other Shape can be positioned thus.

Subtracting the Header Height from the Top Margin yields the vertical distance from the top of the page (sheet of paper) to the top of the Header rectangle.

These values refer to an entire Section — sort of.

But now comes the curious bit.

If you have the Different First Page checkbox in the Header/Footer Palette ticked, and then insert a series of paragraph returns in the Header on the first page, you will observe that the Header on the first page increases in height to accommodate the inserted text.

But you will also notice two other things. One is that the value for the Header Height in the Margins Palette remains unchanged. The other is that, visually, the Header Height on subsequent pages remains unchanged.

This demonstrates a semantic bug in the Margins Palette. (Note, though, that dragging lower the bottom margin of the Header rectangle on the first page forces subsequent pages to adopt the same Top Margin and Header Height.)

Oh, and it also provides a remedy for the Court, without the need to add another Section.

Cheers,
Adrian

Re: different first page header height

Posted: 2019-08-08 09:03:11
by martin
Vanceone wrote:
2019-08-07 19:16:20
So naturally I clicked the "Different first page header" option and enlarged the header to 2 inches. Low and behold header sizes are the same across the document.
I can understand why you were confused, as was this thread's original author. However, as it was explained earlier this is behaving as intended. The "different first page" option refers only to the header's content, not the margin or any other measurement amount.

But maybe this is something we should consider changing, since it continues to be a source of confusion. Thanks for the feedback Vance!

Re: different first page header height

Posted: 2019-08-08 09:20:39
by martin
adryan wrote:
2019-08-07 23:13:25
If you have the Different First Page checkbox in the Header/Footer Palette ticked, and then insert a series of paragraph returns in the Header on the first page, you will observe that the Header on the first page increases in height to accommodate the inserted text.
That's correct, the headers/footers will expand automatically to show their content, even if the section's margins are too narrow.
But you will also notice two other things. One is that the value for the Header Height in the Margins Palette remains unchanged. The other is that, visually, the Header Height on subsequent pages remains unchanged.
Those observations are also both correct:

1. The Margins palette shows the section's configured distances, not the effective distances based on any expansion required by the content.
2. If content expansion is required for one header/footer, it does not create unnecessary whitespace for other headers/footers that aren't showing that content.

I don't know that I'd consider this a bug so much as a misunderstanding about these section palettes. These palettes all control aspects of the current section, not the current page. Perhaps this is potentially confusing. I can understand the expectation that the margin distances shown in the palette should match what you see for the headers on screen. That's WYSIWYG and generally desirable. Changing the behavior might be a good idea, though it would also complicate things. If you consider a section with different first page headers/footers and odd/even pages, then you'd have three sets of margins to configure and harmonize. That's potentially a nuisance.

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback Adrian!

Re: different first page header height

Posted: 2019-08-08 10:09:11
by Vanceone
Martin and Adryan, thanks for the replies. I like the "caveman" style of just sticking in a few returns. It works!

I think, Martin, that with three different sources of adjustments to the margins--heading, odd/even pages, etc. that somehow we get a "single source of truth" to quote Apple. I understand that the "different first page" header and footer is meant to show different text and not show different margins, but there are sometimes where a different size might be useful.

Perhaps a second option-- different first page header/footer sizes-- can be added as well to allow for customization when necessary? I agree that most times all that is needed is different text on a first page, so normally the size shouldn't change, but occasionally it does.


That said, what happens, actually, when you have a "different first page" header/footer with a same page section break? What is considered the "first page" of the section in those situations? I think I recall that whatever section is in effect at the very top of the page is the one that governs what headers and footers appear on that page, regardless of whether there is a new section on that page--is that right?

Re: different first page header height

Posted: 2019-08-09 14:09:07
by martin
Vanceone wrote:
2019-08-08 10:09:11
That said, what happens, actually, when you have a "different first page" header/footer with a same page section break? What is considered the "first page" of the section in those situations? I think I recall that whatever section is in effect at the very top of the page is the one that governs what headers and footers appear on that page, regardless of whether there is a new section on that page--is that right?
That's exactly right. The section associated with the first line of text at the top of the page is the one that governs the page's headers and footers, even if there's a "same page" section break further down that page.