Line spacing when using Combining Diacritical Marks

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waltzmn
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Re: Line spacing when using Combining Diacritical Marks

Post by waltzmn » 2019-09-29 08:51:12

exegete77 wrote:
I am not an expert, but I wonder if the font set issue can make a bigger difference. I use Libertine http://libertine-fonts.org, and it does have some characters specifically for medieval fonts (Latin and Greek, and more scripts/fonts).
I had certainly never heard of this font before. I downloaded it and installed it, and it definitely has more characters I need than most fonts; so far, it has had every character I have needed. Since the only other font I've found that has them all is Geneva, it is a nice find.

However, NisusWriter still shifts the baseline when using combining diacritical marks in this font. This would seem to demonstrate that the problem lies in the way NisusWriter does baselines. :-( Since using Geneva or Libertine at least gives a uniform baseline shift, it's easier to compensate for it, at least.

Thank you for the suggestion.

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Elbrecht
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Re: Line spacing when using Combining Diacritical Marks

Post by Elbrecht » 2019-09-29 11:07:31

Hi –

then you haven't been to SIL as well – may I guess?

https://software.sil.org/fonts/

HE

PS: you wrote:
However, NisusWriter still shifts the baseline when using combining diacritical marks in this font. This would seem to demonstrate that the problem lies in the way NisusWriter does baselines. :-( Since using Geneva or Libertine at least gives a uniform baseline shift, it's easier to compensate for it, at least.
But within a font you have to enter diacritically marked characters differently – enter 1) the character and then 2) with ABC Extended keyboard enter the diacritical mark with SHIFT/OPTION – this will keep the font's baseline intact. To find the diacritical mark look for Show Keyboard Viewer under the keyboard menu – maybe you have to activate this first in System Preferences | Language & Region | Keyboard Preferences…

Not Nisus' fault!
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waltzmn
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Re: Line spacing when using Combining Diacritical Marks

Post by waltzmn » 2019-09-29 12:24:41

Elbrecht wrote:
then you haven't been to SIL as well – may I guess?

https://software.sil.org/fonts/
You guessed correctly. I had heard of them as a source for languages I didn't know, but I didn't realize they had Greek and Latin. Thank you.

Elbrecht also wrote:
But within a font you have to enter diacritically marked characters differently – enter 1) the character and then 2) with ABC Extended keyboard enter the diacritical mark with SHIFT/OPTION – this will keep the font's baseline intact. To find the diacritical mark look for Show Keyboard Viewer under the keyboard menu – maybe you have to activate this first in System Preferences | Language & Region | Keyboard Preferences…
This was much clearer than what you said last time -- thank you for clarifying. I was able to follow the instructions this time. But, on my machine, it still doesn't work. The behavior is the same whether using ABC or US keyboard and whether typing the keystroke for the diacritical or using the character map. This may be a system problem rather than a Nisus problem (I'm still using OS X 10.12, for backward compatibility reasons), but I still have to do manual baseline management.

Incidentally, I have verified that there are no font substitutions taking place now. It's just the use of the marks that causes the shift.

waltzmn
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Re: Line spacing when using Combining Diacritical Marks

Post by waltzmn » 2019-09-29 14:03:36

Correcting my own post --
This was much clearer than what you said last time -- thank you for clarifying. I was able to follow the instructions this time. But, on my machine, it still doesn't work. The behavior is the same whether using ABC or US keyboard and whether typing the keystroke for the diacritical or using the character map. This may be a system problem rather than a Nisus problem (I'm still using OS X 10.12, for backward compatibility reasons), but I still have to do manual baseline management.
It turns out that Elbrecht was right, with the right fonts. Arial Narrow didn't work. Geneva didn't work. But one of the SIL fonts worked. Using that font for diacriticals results in no baseline shift. So it seems that the real answer is to try fonts forever until one finds one that has all the required diacriticals and has proper font metrics. Which is evidently a tall order. :-)

exegete77
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Re: Line spacing when using Combining Diacritical Marks

Post by exegete77 » 2019-09-29 15:35:53

Perhaps Gentium and Gentium Plus will have more in Latin, Greek, Cyrillic scripts

https://software.sil.org/gentium
iMac 21.5” / MBP 13” Retina
Mac user since 1990

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Elbrecht
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Re: Line spacing when using Combining Diacritical Marks

Post by Elbrecht » 2019-09-30 04:04:52

Again –

you wrote:
This was much clearer than what you said last time -- thank you for clarifying. I was able to follow the instructions this time. But, on my machine, it still doesn't work. The behavior is the same whether using ABC or US keyboard and whether typing the keystroke for the diacritical or using the character map. This may be a system problem rather than a Nisus problem (I'm still using OS X 10.12, for backward compatibility reasons), but I still have to do manual baseline management.

Incidentally, I have verified that there are no font substitutions taking place now. It's just the use of the marks that causes the shift.
OK I am on High Sierra – does it make this difference for you? There used to be available the US Extended keyboard and the newer ABC Extended does about the same work – just on a more general naming address. Character Map and PopChar are of help too – but then the baseline should stay, as is. If not, another font – substituting – is the bad guy. That's why I customize my fonts to contain all special characters needed. Ideally your document runs on one font family only – with fixed line height…

HE
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MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6
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waltzmn
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Re: Line spacing when using Combining Diacritical Marks

Post by waltzmn » 2019-09-30 08:08:09

Elbrecht wrote:
OK I am on High Sierra – does it make this difference for you? There used to be available the US Extended keyboard and the newer ABC Extended does about the same work – just on a more general naming address. Character Map and PopChar are of help too – but then the baseline should stay, as is. If not, another font – substituting – is the bad guy. That's why I customize my fonts to contain all special characters needed. Ideally your document runs on one font family only – with fixed line height…
If you note my next message after the one you quoted, you'll note that changing fonts again helped. Apparently Geneva's font metrics don't work even when using only Geneva! Which is unfortunate, since it's the alternative font used for diacritical marks. So the solution is to somehow find fonts that have all the marks you need, and use only those. (Which is what you said, but in a different way.)

This is harder than it sounds, since I don't know of a good way to see all the characters in a font (not just the diacriticals), and the SIL fonts are too wide to be ideal for the transcription I'm doing, but I don't know what else to use. So SIL it will be....

Ideally, there would be a way to control which font was substituted when a glyph is missing, but I believe that's Apple's problem, not Nisus's. If Nisus came up with a fix, it would be wonderful, but it is definitely not a feature there will be much demand for.

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Elbrecht
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Re: Line spacing when using Combining Diacritical Marks

Post by Elbrecht » 2019-09-30 08:22:19

Hi –

for me the coolest way to handle the content of Unicode fonts is using PopChar –

https://www.ergonis.com/products/popcharx/

There is a secondary font option in Nisus Preferences | Languages | Secondary Font

HE
MacBook Pro i5
SSD 840/850 Pro
MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6
Nisus Writer Pro 3.0.1

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