Saving documents

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ngazidja
Posts: 129
Joined: 2005-01-23 17:12:16

Saving documents

Post by ngazidja » 2015-03-27 00:06:07

Why has the saving new file process changed?

This is what happens to me:

1. Create a new document ("untitled") and add text.

2. CMD-S makes the file menu flash, so the assumption is that it saves, but I know not where. There is no prompt, presumably it is being called "untitled" in a backup folder.

3. I click "save as" and get a prompt with the filename an apparently random piece of text from the file - usually, but not always the first words.

4. I save on the desktop. The file appears on the desktop.

5. I close the file and get the do you want to save dialogue box. There is no longer a "discard changes" option, but "delete". Assuming it meant the same thing, the first time this happend I clicked this (since I've already saved the file), but the file now disappears from the desktop.

I have now learned not to click delete, but to click "save as", in which case the file name reverts to untitled and I have to do it all again.

Tecnically this may not be a bug but it is a little curious that having saved the file (twice), and having seen it appear in the relevant folder, it should not be permanent and I have to save it a third time.

I have to say this doesn't happen every time - sometime the file saves normally, indeed, sometimes it saves without asking so that if I close the file it doesn't ask if I want to save changes, which I would like back, since sometimes I don't want to keep changes.

ngazidja
Posts: 129
Joined: 2005-01-23 17:12:16

Re: Saving documents

Post by ngazidja » 2015-03-27 06:15:26

Ok, I see what's happening, despite documents bing saved where I think I have saved them, they are going into user/Documents/Nisus Documents. So they are not completely lost. But why the change, and why does the document I save on the Desktop (or anywhere else) completely vaporize? Please can we go back to the old system where saved documents remain where I save them?

Vanceone
Posts: 143
Joined: 2013-05-03 07:06:31

Re: Saving documents

Post by Vanceone » 2015-03-27 08:43:21

What you are experiencing is from the move to more.... modern (I use that term advisedly in this case) Apple tech. Starting with OS X 10.7, also known as Lion, Apple introduced a slew of updates regarding file saving; from versions to autosave to; well, a bunch of stuff.

The long and short of it is that Apple was trying to make it so that people wouldn't have to worry about saving documents manually anymore; just as with Time Machine set and configured you could just let it keep a backup automatically.

Nisus in 2.1 thoroughly updated to support all of the post Snow Leopard goodness; 64 bit, the sandbox, and the new File saving mechanisms. This update was necessary to be sold through the App Store.

And for new users, it does work. For people used to handling saving on their own, it's a jarring experience, to say the least. I myself ignore Versions and the rest of it. But you still have to deal with it.

Key concepts: When you start a new document, immediately save as where you want it to be; else Nisus will save it in the default Nisus Document's folder. Now, as you work, you can ignore saving! Try it: Open a new document, save as somewhere, then enter some text. The Title bar will change to have an -edited line in it. If you leave it alone for a minute, that edited will go away. Quicklooking your file from the finder will show your changes have been saved automatically.

Versioning means that you can get the old document back, if you want to discard changes. Just go to the File menu-revert to and then "browse all versions."

That said, if you really want to manually manage your saving, System Preferences->General and then click the checkbox next to "Ask to keep changes". That brings back most of the old functionality; e.g. asking you to explicitly save changes.

ngazidja
Posts: 129
Joined: 2005-01-23 17:12:16

Re: Saving documents

Post by ngazidja » 2015-03-27 09:14:27

Thanks for the explanation, as long as I know...! Although I see in the saving preferences I can't select another folder for autosave - Document Manager is the only local choice, all the others appear to be in a dark room in Palo Alto.

martin
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Re: Saving documents

Post by martin » 2015-03-27 12:17:46

Vanceone has already explained the long of it– thank you! But there are a couple of peculiar points:
ngazidja wrote:1. Create a new document ("untitled") and add text.

2. CMD-S makes the file menu flash, so the assumption is that it saves, but I know not where. There is no prompt, presumably it is being called "untitled" in a backup folder.

3. I click "save as" and get a prompt with the filename an apparently random piece of text from the file - usually, but not always the first words.

4. I save on the desktop. The file appears on the desktop.

5. I close the file and get the do you want to save dialogue box.
This is unexpected. If you explicitly use the menu Save As to give the document a location, you should not be prompted when closing the document. If there are any outstanding changes to the document when you close it, they should simply be autosaved to the location you selected earlier. What version of OSX are you using exactly?
the filename an apparently random piece of text from the file
There are some heuristics for choosing the initial automatic file name. I won't go into all of the factors, but NWP tries to select something more relevant like a heading.
Although I see in the saving preferences I can't select another folder for autosave - Document Manager is the only local choice, all the others appear to be in a dark room in Palo Alto
I'm sorry about the limited choices. Users have made it clear they'd like to be able to choose any folder as the default autosave location. It's definitely an enhancement we'd like to add.

ngazidja
Posts: 129
Joined: 2005-01-23 17:12:16

Re: Saving documents

Post by ngazidja » 2015-03-28 08:14:58

Hi Martin,

Thanks for that, I can deal with it now I know how, but it seemed to me particularly curious that I could go through what appeared to be a process of saving, and see the file on my desktop, and then have it disappear (not even in the trash) when I closed the file (clicking "delete" admitted, assuming this was a new word for "discard changes"). That it did exist is proved by the fact that I can copy it when it is on the desktop, and when I close the file the copy is still there, even though the original has gone.

Iain.

ngazidja
Posts: 129
Joined: 2005-01-23 17:12:16

Re: Saving documents

Post by ngazidja » 2015-03-30 08:53:02

Back again. I still find it curious that a saved file should disappear. I just did it again. I opened a file - actually a .dot file and so I had an untitled document. I made changes (it's a letterhead, and I've moved), saved the file on the desktop as "new letterhead" (and it appeared on the desktop) and then closed it. No warning, no "do you want to save", no nothing. It just closed and the file on the desktop disappeared. Yes, it's in Document Manager, but it's a pain to have to go to Document Manager each time, fish out the file and put it where I want it, especially when I've already gone to the trouble of saving it where I want it. Or not, apparently.

Oh, and when I go to Document Manager to get it out, I have to rename it, too, since the filename is not the name I gave it, but the first words of the file.

Just complaining. :-)

dshan
Posts: 333
Joined: 2003-11-21 19:25:28
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Saving documents

Post by dshan » 2015-03-31 03:54:02

ngazidja wrote:Back again. I still find it curious that a saved file should disappear. I just did it again. I opened a file - actually a .dot file and so I had an untitled document. I made changes (it's a letterhead, and I've moved), saved the file on the desktop as "new letterhead" (and it appeared on the desktop) and then closed it. No warning, no "do you want to save", no nothing. It just closed and the file on the desktop disappeared. Yes, it's in Document Manager, but it's a pain to have to go to Document Manager each time, fish out the file and put it where I want it, especially when I've already gone to the trouble of saving it where I want it. Or not, apparently.

Oh, and when I go to Document Manager to get it out, I have to rename it, too, since the filename is not the name I gave it, but the first words of the file.

Just complaining. :-)
There's something wrong with your Nisus 2.1 setup - when I create a new document and save it to the desktop with a cmd+S, and name it in the file save dialog, the new document stays on the desktop and retains the name I gave it after I close the document window (or quite NWP). As Martin said previously that's the way it's supposed to work.

Ah... do you have Nisus Writer Pro>Preferences>Saving>"Keep all new documents without asking me" checked perhaps? If you do then uncheck it and see if that doesn't fix it (I just tried with it checked and cmd+S now saves the new document to the Document Manager folder without giving me the opportunity to specify a location or name for the file). I can't see why you would ever enable that option now as OS X now automatically takes care of auto-saving new documents and it seems pointless to have NWP trying to do it as well, it seems the two auto-save systems are treading on one another.

ngazidja
Posts: 129
Joined: 2005-01-23 17:12:16

Re: Saving documents

Post by ngazidja » 2015-03-31 04:10:09

Thank you, I think this has done it - removed the "keep without asking" option. Everything's back to normal.

martin
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Re: Saving documents

Post by martin » 2015-04-01 16:23:21

I'm glad you have a solution, but I'd still like to investigate this problem.

Even with the "keep without asking" option engaged, I haven't been able to reproduce the problems you describe, where documents you've explicitly Saved As are somehow moved or deleted without your involvement. That should not occur. What version of OSX are you using? Perhaps that's a factor here.

ngazidja
Posts: 129
Joined: 2005-01-23 17:12:16

Re: Saving documents

Post by ngazidja » 2015-04-01 22:30:22

I spoke too soon in any case, yesterday I ended up with three copies of a file on the desktop and when I thought I'd saved and then closed it, two of them disappeared. At least I still had one... I'm using 10.7.5. Should I downgrade NWP?

dshan
Posts: 333
Joined: 2003-11-21 19:25:28
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Saving documents

Post by dshan » 2015-04-04 05:50:13

ngazidja wrote:I spoke too soon in any case, yesterday I ended up with three copies of a file on the desktop and when I thought I'd saved and then closed it, two of them disappeared. At least I still had one... I'm using 10.7.5. Should I downgrade NWP?
No, you should upgrade OS X. There were several issues with the New Document Model (i.e auto-save and versioning, etc) in 10.7.x that were addressed in 10.8 and later as I recall. I'm running 10.10.2 and I'm not seeing your problems, hence I think you'll find the best solution is to get onto the latest version of OS X.

Not to mention that there's a whole bunch of security fixes that have come out that have not been back-ported to 10.7.5. Apple is not issuing security fixes for any versions prior to 10.8.x now. Staying on such an old release of OS X is to invite trouble, and the longer you remain on it the worse things will get.

ngazidja
Posts: 129
Joined: 2005-01-23 17:12:16

Re: Saving documents

Post by ngazidja » 2015-04-04 06:22:53

I upgraded to Mavericks a few months ago, probably the worst decision of my life (although there was an incident in 1982 which comes close, but I won't go into it here). Anyway, it took me about a week full time to downgrade back to 10.7.5 (I'd done a new full back up wth Mavericks and all my 10.7.5 system had been overwritten so I had to do it all manually. Won't make that mistake again.).

I've downgraded NWP now and all is fine.

dumiya
Posts: 24
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Saving documents

Post by dumiya » 2015-04-09 00:23:38

Yep, I just lost a saved document (several in fact).
New file, "saved as xxx" to desktop, I could see the file. Closed document had four choices but as I has saved it I deleted the copy, the file was deleted from the desk top!! Tried again but chose "quick saved", the file remained on the desk top.
Just how many times does the document have to be re-saved?
By default it want to be saved in the Nisus Folder. But seems to get deleted after being saved. My Nisus Folder is full ofred deleted files.
Next time I saved the "new file" to an attached HD. It managed to stay their.
I really don't understand what is happening.
Help

dshan
Posts: 333
Joined: 2003-11-21 19:25:28
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Saving documents

Post by dshan » 2015-04-09 00:34:51

dumiya, what version of OS X is this? What version of NWP (2.1 or 2.1.1b?)

Do you have Nisus Writer Pro>Preferences>Saving>"Keep all new documents without asking me" checked? If so, uncheck it.

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