Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

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DavidK
Posts: 72
Joined: 2004-10-26 15:35:19
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by DavidK »

When I type the Hebrew letters Shin or Sin into a document, they are not formed properly, as in this file:
Hebrew misformed.gif
Hebrew misformed.gif (43.76 KiB) Viewed 6530 times
However, after I close the file and reopen it, the shin and sin are properly formed, as in this file:
Hebrew saved and reopened.gif
Hebrew saved and reopened.gif (44.29 KiB) Viewed 6536 times
I have submitted this as a bug ever since NWE 2.0, but it has never been fixed. Am I the only one with the problem? Can anyone else reproduce the bug and help me convince Nisus to fix it?

martin
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Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by martin »

What you've shown is odd. The first thing that strikes me is that the font in the first screenshot appears to be completely different from the one in the second. Have you changed the font, or does this occur automatically after the file has been reopened?

DavidK
Posts: 72
Joined: 2004-10-26 15:35:19
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by DavidK »

The font is not different - I didn't change anything. The only letter that appears in a different font is the shin - the other letters are all New Peninim MT in both screenshots.

martin
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Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by martin »

Perhaps that is exactly the problem here. In the screenshot with "malformed" shin characters font substitution may have incorrectly occurred for some reason. How are you typing the pointed shins exactly and with what keyboard layout? Can you walk me through it in steps a non-Hebrew typist could follow?

Ruchama
Posts: 213
Joined: 2006-08-19 18:35:27

Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by Ruchama »

I tried and could not reproduce this behavior. However- I have a different problem with the New Peninim font that whenever I select it, it appears inclined (italics) and I have to specifically select regular.
I work with tiger. It looks like leopard users have a different set of problems.

Apple have done a lousy job with their fonts in particular and hebrew support in general... problems that were solved in system 6 or earlier have reappeared as though we are back in the eighties... Unfortunately, Nisus' decision to use apple's text engine did not do us much good...

ProfT
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Joined: 2005-03-09 06:53:40
Location: La Mirada, CA

Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by ProfT »

I tried this on Leopard and could not reproduce the error. I have seen this kind of problem before but usually with the presence of an accent over the letter.

DavidK
Posts: 72
Joined: 2004-10-26 15:35:19
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by DavidK »

A little more information: I am using 10.4.11 - if this problem does not occur in leopard, that would certainly be a reason to upgrade. I also occasionally have the problem of New Peninim MT initially appearing inclined, and having to go to the font palate to remove the italics.

I have a Hebrew style that has the following characteristics: Language - Hebrew; font - New Peninim MT; size 16pt; text alignment - right. I choose this style and type shift-w, which should give me a shin. I get the malformed shin (with the shin dot over the right side of the letter), with the Lucida grande font substitution. When I type an option-w, which should give me a sin (with the sin dot over the left side of the letter), I get a malformed sin (in lucida grande font). When I type a plain w, I get a regular shin/sin with no dot over the letter to distinguish between a shin and a sin.

Ruchama
Posts: 213
Joined: 2006-08-19 18:35:27

Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by Ruchama »

I also use 10.4.11 and just now I checked it again. if I select New Peninim and write something with shin or sin it stays with New Peninim and no 'malformation'. same with Lucida Grande (which I my default hebrew font). you may have a problem with your style.. can you try to type the same thing without this hebrew style?
just select hebrew language and align right and type..
By the way- it is not malformation- it is simply Lucida Grande letter that is much larger than the corresponding New Peninim letter. There , I think, is the riddle for Nisus people.

Ruchama
Posts: 213
Joined: 2006-08-19 18:35:27

Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by Ruchama »

I also use 10.4.11 and just now I checked it again. if I select New Peninim and write something with shin or sin it stays with New Peninim and no 'malformation'. same with Lucida Grande (which I my default hebrew font). you may have a problem with your style.. can you try to type the same thing without this hebrew style?
just select hebrew language and align right and type..
By the way- it is not malformation- it is simply Lucida Grande letter that is much larger than the corresponding New Peninim letter. There , I think, is the riddle for Nisus people.

martin
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Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by martin »

Thanks for the extra information David. I tried out your steps and was able to reproduce the problem, both in NWP and TextEdit. It appears to be some bug in Apple's text engine regarding the pointed shin in this particular font. And while the problem manifests on the latest version of Tiger, it appears to be fixed on Leopard. I don't believe there's anything we can do about it, unless Apple decides to fix the problem on Tiger as well, which seems unlikely.

I was also able to reproduce the oddity where the "Inclined" font face is used as the default for New Peninim. That may be our bug and I'll have us take a look at fixing it.

Ruchama
Posts: 213
Joined: 2006-08-19 18:35:27

Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by Ruchama »

Martin- I am curious- why couldn't I reproduce this bug? did you create David's style before?

martin
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Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by martin »

I did recreate David's style to initially test the bug, but it's not required. Any time New Peninim is used the bug can reproduce. Perhaps you used a different keyboard layout? I used the "Hebrew-QWERTY" keyboard layout and typed the pointed shin via Shift (or Option) + W.

Also, we looked into the problem where "Inclined" is chosen as the default face for New Peninim. This is a problem with the font on Tiger: it incorrectly reports itself as being not italic. On Leopard the problem has been fixed and the New Peninim Inclined face correctly reports as italic.

Ruchama
Posts: 213
Joined: 2006-08-19 18:35:27

Re: Misformed Hebrew Shin and Sin

Post by Ruchama »

You are right. I do use the hebrew keyboard layout and not the QWERTY one. maybe the fault is there?
(I don't really know why I use this one- I recall that years ago this keyboard caused problems when transferring files between computers. so I refrain from using it.
but maybe this will solve David's problem..

I am really angry about apple with their lousy job for hebrew on OS X..

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